stuck in plastic bags to awaken their owners. >> anne writes the only good thing about being awakened by blood in a las vegas hospital at that answers that. i don't know where they're hiding. the women are wearing boosters. we know what a booster is? i don't wear women's clothes as much as i used to. according to one of our viewers, there's a device a woman can wear to allow her to lift fine wine and spirits. now you know. "morning joe" starts right now. >> the first time a deal was passed, a predecessor of mine made a case by saying this --

would you rather reduce deficits and interest rates by raising revenue for those not now paying their fair share? or would you rather accept larger budget deficits, higher interest rates, and higher unemployment. i think i know your answer. those words were spoken by ronald reagan. but today, many republicans in the house refuse to consider this balanced approach, an approach pursued by president reagan, but by the first president bush, by president clinton, by myself, and be my democrats and republicans in the united states senate. >> the sad truth is that the president wanted a blank check six months ago. and he wants a blank check today. this is just not going to happen. you see, there's no stalemate here in congress. the house passed a bill to raise the debt limit with bipartisan support. this week, while the senate is struggling to pass a bill filled with phony accounting and

washington gimmicks, we're going to pass another bill, one that's developed with the support of the bipartisan leadership of the u.s. senate. good morning, it's tuesday, july 26. welcome to "morning joe." a little relief from the heat, willie. >> 85 versus 105. >> with us, harold ford jr. and the editor in chief of "the daily beast," tina brown. and in washington, nbc political analyst pat buchanan. let's start there. i must say grading both of these gentlemen, both of these leaders on performance, i would have given them an a. i thought both of them had compelling messages. i agreed with one more than the other. >> which one? >> i better not say, actually.

but why did they do that last night? >> i think actually it should be jarring to the markets because no new ground was -- there were two political speeches. what was the purpose of it other than making all of america that was watching it just a little more nervous? >> it's a very good question. clearly boehner is responding to the president of the united states, frankly. and i thought boehner but very much above his game and the president is eloquent and it's better to have a superior podium. but why did the president do it? it was utterly unrealistic what he was saying. he's talking about, you know, the corporate jets and the taxes on the billionaires and all this. that is yesterday. there aren't going to be any tax increases. harry reid nor boehner in the special plans have enhancement

or tax increases. they're the only two plans on the table. the president is benched, basically, he's out of the process except as an individual who's going to veto us in to default or not. you're not going to get an increase in the debt ceiling. i thought boehner, far more realistic, far more grounded in reality. >> i thought, again, i thought the president did very, very well last night. and i think you're right, john boehner was above his game, certainly at least tina, as far as the delivery goes. but the fact that both of these gentlemen gave primetime addresses, delivered political speeches, broke absolutely no ground and in fact made a lot of people watching, even supporters of the president saying, this concerns us because we're basically where we were when this all began. >> i agree. i thought obama did very well last night. but it seemed kind of retro in

the sense that the whole tax situation is off of the table anyway. so it's like why was he saying that again? one of the problems with the dynamic, the gop is going to say anything that they can do to humiliate obama. he gives the concession, they want to humiliate him more. there's a question now continuing through 2012. it's a disaster. surely in the end, a disaster for the gop. why is it better for them in a sense to be in the middle of an election year. why do they think the american people somehow makes them like the gop more. i don't think it can. everyone is totally irresponsible here. >> you heard political strategy. what i heard -- a lot of it is defeatism. i heard this while it was going on. chuck todd mentioned it past tense, they're speaking past

tense. i tried, i met with them as it was done or over with. they set it up to make a deal or put more pressure on them. in the end, the president is saying, it's down to this -- please call your congressman. the president of the united states begging the american people to call their congressmen because that's where they are and that's what they need the people to do. >> yeah, you're right. tina was talking about the president. putting tax increases on the table. he was talking about closing loopholes that we talked about closing, harold. the president as far as the policy description sounded very, very reasonable and sounded like the outline of a grand bargain that i think a lot of people would support. >> he lost that framing six months ago is the trouble, i mean, it's like the narrative he drew was a good narrative. but it seems like the moment has passed. >> why did he do this last

night? >> if you are someone who doesn't watch this very closely as we do, and some people not only in new york but in washington do, you probably found both of them not only disappointing but as i heard this morning, from someone who follows him but wants it done, get done with it. get over with it. we're sick of seeing this back-and-forth. as much of the positioning is important, i heard in both of the political speeches last night. the president sounded like he was positioning for '12. bohnern sounded like he was positioning his own republican caucus and members running for re-election. both need to understand -- two weeks ago, i would not have agreed with you this would have hurt republicans three, six months from now. i'm not convinced this helps them if there's another vote. people are so disgusted with this process in government, i think the most important and truthful thing was that people may have looked for a divided government, but they have a dysfunctional government. and the problem for the president is boehner and the

president are going to be blamed for that. >> is he a bad gaucnegotiator oe grown-up in the room. >> they were both trying to achieve. i thought the president gave a better speech, but not sure either won. >> speaking to the east room, the president made it clear he doesn't approve of john boehner's plan to raise the debt ceiling. >> for the past several weeks, republican house members have said the only way they'll vote to prevent america's first ever default is if the rest of us agree to the deep spending cuts only approach. the new approach that speaker bohnern unveiled today which would temporarily extend the debt ceiling in exchange for cuts would force us once again to face the threat of default six months from now. in order, it doesn't solve the problem. >> the president reminded congress that they had to find a compromise.

he said he could back senate majority leader harry reid's plan that pat was talking about noting that it would ensure the same debate wouldn't return in six months. towards the end of the speech, president obama asked the american people for help. >> the american people may have voted for a divided government, but they didn't vote for a dysfunctional government. so i'm asking you all to make your voice heard. if you want a balanced approach to reducing the deficit, let your member of congress know. if you believe we can solve this problem through compromise, send that message. >> so, pat, you thought the president delivered a very eloquent speech last night. i'm sure very few people aside from the extremes were offended by what he said. but do you think he's going to be able to get callers from across america to move one member of congress his direction?

this is what i mean? he said we can't have an unbalanced approach spending cuts only. what do you think the other plans are? it's passe. it's gone. his speech was unheroic. he seems overly concerned we're going to have to do this again in six months, we're going to have to raise the debt ceiling. we've had short-term debt ceilings before. but in addition to this, joe, if you take the reid bill and the phoniness and get down to the $1 trillion in the boehner bill, they're not that far apart. what we're going to get now is the tea party's won the battle on no new taxes. they've won the battle on spending cuts alone. they may yet win the battle on a short term debt ceiling because we can't put together a big one in one week's time. and you noticed the president had no statement in there, "i will veto a short-term debt ceiling." what happened to that? >> he didn't have that. i was wondering if you would

allow if you ear in the president's position or advisor, you advised many presidents before. would you not tell him to stand up to his opponents? >> i would not tell the president of the united states to veto a short term debt ceiling. if, as a result, i'm going to throw my country into default over what? the president is willing to accept a clean debt ceiling with nothing. now boehner is going to give a debt ceiling with $1 trillion in cuts. why would he reject the good because it's not the best? >> my advice -- i think, pat, we've had this discussion on the show. pat and i sparred a bit in the last two weeks. i think pat, unfortunately, for the democrats standpoint is right. i don't mean you're right. you're more right this morning than wrong. if the president has to accept a short term plan which is looking more and more likely in the front pages of the international papers saying continue to threaten the downgrade, it's the right thing to do at the moment. but if he's serious about

reducing cuts and raising revenue, he's going to have to get on the road in the next several weeks to make this case. i understand his point asking people to phone members of congress, but the president -- the president doesn't ask people to call their members of congress. he has to make the case. and i think he's tried. i do respect the members of congress. >> you say you blame the freshmen republicans. >> for not achieving a balanced approach now? >> of course. listen to what pat said. he's right. what do you say to the president's own base when the president at this point seems to be saying, the tea party members are extreme. so i'm going to cave in on ta s taxes. so they win. i'm going to cave in on spending cuts, so they win. then if at the end of the process he gives us temporary extension, which it looks like

he's going to do, it looks like the tea party members are the best negotiators in town, harold? >> they've been the most determined negotiators in town. >> what does it say about the president. >> not disagreeing. i said unfortunately, you guys are right. >> you're missing my point. my point is that the president of the united states, i'm sorry, would -- i would stare down my opposition. but, okay, you want to take us over the cliff, guess what? start putting a claim one out every day. if you want to take america over the cliff because you don't get 100% of what you want, that's going to be on your hands. and i'm willing to stare you down. the president won't do that. why? >> let me answer the question. the president is being respon responsible here. we have a downgrade that's serious. none of us know what the repercussions will be. >> it's going be horrific,

harold. >> the point is does the president allow the opposition? >> i think he's doing the right thing -- >> to frame the debate in the next two years. >> completely framed. >> he didn't frame it as well as he should have. we have to avoid a downgrade. the consequences will not only be -- >> they win. >> the freshmen republicans win. >> for the moment. >> their position is going to -- my only point is going for -- the president has got to get out. what the republicans did for protecting the wealthiest of americans, you said it on the show. that point was not made emphatically and repeatedly enough, i hope the president does that. >> can i get in here? >> it looks like the only place we're headed. >> if it's temporary, inunderstand what harold is saying. >> and i understand what harold is saying. >> but again, i'm not looking at this i'd logically, i'm not choosing sides here. i'm saying as a political

analyst, i'm stunned that the president is it going to deliver his -- to his opposition total and complete victory. i would not do it if i were sitting in that chair. >> daring -- daring him to take america -- >> the reason it's happening is because the tea party and the republicans have the whip hand. you cannot get ten crepts in revenues out of the house unless they vote for it. and they said we're not voting for it. the president going to wind up with the debt ceiling on the desk chair. i would do somewhat what harold says, frankly. i would sign it, i would say i'm doing it for the god of the country. i don't want to risk default or the shutdown of this country. i'm going to go to this country. in the tea party, if you think that's the way to go, you vote for them in 2012. if you believe we're doing the right thing, this is what we're going to run on. make that the case. why is he so frightened of a battle six months down the road if, as everybody said, in pr terms, he beat the daylights out of the republicans. why is he afraid?

>> i agree, pat. that's what i would do. >> joe makes the point, though. it's a trifecta of success for the tea party. whichever way you spend it, he was crushed. he's going to go on the road as a loser. he's proved he's not good at that. he lost the whole framing six months ago. he spends the next six months instead of talking about jobs and how we grow this economy, he's talking about this -- >> which is what, tina, it's hike extending the bush tax cuts for two years. we heard forever they're going to come to an en. -- end. he loses the election, and passes a $1 trillion bill on the bush tax cuts. he loses on the tax cuts, he loses on this. >> he loses his whole base. >> president of the united states. why don't -- >> why doesn't hep say, look, i tell you what i'm going do. you've seen the last of the bush tax cuts in 2012. if he's got the nerve to say that. he's got a big stick there. those can lapse without his help. >> let's talk about nerve. in the end, we're focusing too

much on the president of the united states. the bottom line is this, democrats always rail against tax cuts for the rich. but they don't have the courage to raise taxes. they do not have the courage to put their opponents against the wall and say, you know what? we are going to raise taxes on the wealthy. we're going to raise taxes. we're going to close loopholes. we're going to make corporations pay more money. than -- than the secretaries that work in the corporations. willie, i've seen this for years. democrats always -- oh, those republicans, they're supply-ciders, they're crazy. the democrats -- they do not have the courage of their convictions to say to republicans, we need to raise more revenue. we're going to close tax loopholes. we're going to fight you on it. they caved on bush tax cuts and they're caving on the loopholes for corporations. >> they did make those points last night. he was speaking to the audience, harold was talking about outside

of this show and new york and washington, d.c., people not following it from minute to minute, here's what's going to happen. they talked about loopholes. this is what you said. >> they always make the rhetorical point. they never put it in to action because they -- they fear what the repercussions will be politically. >> i agree with that. i think they collapse. >> amen. >> president obama needs to take a page out of president clinton's book, get on the road and say he did the responsible thing by avoiding a downgrade. he's got to make a case about jobs and make everyone pay their fair share. he can salvage and find his way out of this mess. other than that, you're spot on. >> pat, harold brought up bill clinton. i will tell you, and i know because i was there. he wouldn't put up with this. he'd beat the hell out of it. every day. and when he started, we were laughing at him going, america's on our side. and then he just stayed at it.

we were stunned. he was a river boat gambler and he took all of the money out of our pockets. he crushed -- he crushed the gingrich revolution. he got re-elected. he won it on his terms. and, pat, unless you're willing. unless you were willing to take your opponents to the wall, you're going to lose these fights more often than not. i think that's where the president is right now. >> you know, joe, the question is -- you were talking about shutting down the government. he's talking about collapsing the american economy and the financial markets in a 1,000-point drop in the dow for which he alone will be responsible. >> that's not true. >> he says i veto the debt ceiling increase. >> oh, okay. well i understand the horrific consequences. i wrote a column about it yesterday. but at the same time, you can't -- you just can't allow your opponents to hold the country basically to hold legislation hostage.

>> again, i'm speaking as a political analyst. i think this just frames -- i think it frames the president as a weak leader if he doesn't stand up to his opponents. >> he's been whipped. no question about it. horse foot, game, set, match. >> he's avoiding a downgrade of our debt. the responsible thing to do. the last three months could have been handled better. i applaud him for the right thing for america is more important than doing the political thing. >> it's the smart thing to do. >> the markets will see it and agree with joe. >> the markets will see this as the responsible thing to do. coming up, the former national security advisor, dr. brzezinski and dick durbin and the director of the white house economic council, gene sperling. can't wait to talk to him. but first, a look at the "politico" playbook. and first, bill karins, he has a

shot on the forecast. bill, it's not hot as hell out there. we thank you for that. >> yesterday, as willie said earlier today, it was a london-type day. philadelphia, new york. kind of cloudy and cooler. hope everyone in those areas enjoyed it. dc, not as fortunate. right now, everything is clearing out from yesterday. morning clouds. we're looking at sunshine in here. we ore going to be warm in dc at 93. but for new york city northwards a chance for showers and thunderstorms that will cool you off. it will be hot again. the heat is building in the middle of the country once again. strong thunderstorms. maybe tornadoes up to fargo, minneapolis. strong storms. the friends in the southeast in florida, you'll dodge the storms. i mention washington, d.c., things are going to get sticky there thursday to friday. 95 to 100 again. not just the rhetoric is heating up. temperatures too by friday. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks.

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big news, big news, you guys. after months of negotiations, a deal has been reached to end the nfl lockout. [ applause ] >> or as china put it, oh, great, glad you got that deal worked out. any word on the $14 trillion. yeah, might want to get working on that one. let's take a look at the morning papers. "the new york times." the unemployed need not apply. that's the message from the growing number of employers. a recent review of websites like monster.com and craiglist show hundreds of job postings will only consider people who are currently employed or recently laid off. it's become common enough that

new jersey passed a law banning these types of ads. >> financial times, netflix is bracing for the backlash of the recent price hike. the company warned of a slowdown. it sent netflix shares tumbling 10% in afterhours trading. >> and grand central terminal is getting bigger. a ten-year deal in the works to build an apple store there. if approved on wednesday, the construction is expected to take about four months. what do you have on your cover really quickly? it's a fascinating cover. >> we have the dsk scoop. we had this week where we have the maid speaking for the first time on sunday. we brought this out. it's a fantastic piece by chris dickey and john sullivan that goes out through the whole case and truly deconstructs what this maid has to say at this time. it's extraordinary. >> what do you think of that

strategy, tina? >> load of bad comment that was unleashed when the whole case got questioned because of her integrity. we go over that at length. i was present at the interview at the time. and there are moments when i don't find her believable in terms of her own story in the past. but where she describes the rate, she's very believable. and i do believe that a rape did happen in that room. but i think she's also a character who has gotten a lot of iffy stuff that has gone on in her past. but in some ways, you have to say, well, a lot of people lied to get to this country. a lot of people lie to get housing and, you know, lie on their tax forms. it doesn't make her, you know, somebody who necessarily goes well in front of a jury. but at the same time, you know, you have to see it in the context of her life. she may not be a perfect human being, but something happened in that room. >> she was on tv as well clearly

a strategy. go to "politico" to look at the "politico playbook," the executive editor there, mr. jim van deheye. take a look at the way the hopefuls responded to the speech. tim pawlenty, michelle bachmann among others. what were they saying? >> a unified message and a political message saying the president is not doing enough. they like the plan the plan that john boehner, the speaker of the house, has put forward for the party. every one of them can see this as an opportunity to do a lot more in cutting spending and nothing to raise taxes and they have to protect taxes where they are or reduce them. so, it's a pretty standard line. it's one of the reasons -- nobody is really distinguishing themselves in this debate. and in truth, no one is distinguishing themselves in this field. which is why you have so much activity behind the scenes of

talk of somebody else getting in. people trying to read jeb bush's comments over the weekend or christie's trip to iowa mean he'll jump into the race or will rick perry do it in the next week or two. >> let's talk about rick perry. he looks like he's closer than he was a couple of weeks ago, even? >> he's extremely close to jumping in. a bunch of anaheim california, meeting with activists, donors, contingencies from different states come to texas to talk about the foreign policy and campaign. people are walking away impressed, people are walking away thinking he's going to jump into the race. people are on the hill trying to get other lawmakers to not endorse him. you can see a big push for rick perry if he does jump in. a poll in florida has him tied with everybody else. >> wow, perry for president, joe? >> who was it that played george

w. in the oliver stone movie? >> josh brolin. >> he is josh brolin. look at him. he's josh brolin playing george w. bush. is america ready for another texan, joe? >> i think america is always ready for another texan president. i just don't think they're ready for this one. >> jim vandehei, thank you so much. we'll see you soon. >> i'm sorry, come on, now, man. i love texas. and i mean that. i love texas. but this -- >> this is the silly season. it's the silly season. >> rick perry is imitating josh brolin imitating george w. bush. i just don't think that's going to happen. look at that. it's -- >> yes. >> by the way, i will say it again, we met him on the air. i liked him very much. he's a cocky guy, he's very confident. we had a lot of fun with him, willie, right? >> nice guy, good swagger to

him. >> he's got a big old swagger and got the g.w. imitation down. not in 2012, i don't think. >> it's like you need a whole bunch of fake candidates and then some real candidates. we can follow the fake ones right up to the end. ÷x

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>> time for a little sports. it's over. the lockout is over. >> thank god. >> thank god. >> after 136 days, the nfl is

back. it will be a season. we'll all have something to do on sundays this fall. players representing all 32 teams unanimously approve the ten-year labor agreement after owners approved the measure last week after months of behind-closed-door meetings, owners and players came out united after the deal was reached. >> on behalf of the players on the national football league, i wanted to say it's a great day. standing on the eve of the day when football gets back to business. the players couldn't be more excited than going back and doing the thing they love the most. we said throughout the process that we would do a deal when it's right and when it's the right deal. the players did that. we stuck it to the end, we stood our ground. >> who won the dispute. was it the players or the owners? we'll find out over time. the new deal includes owners taking more of the revenue, 50-50 split. now 53%. now a continuation of the

16-game schedule. for the players. the owners wanted 18 games. no overall guaranteed contracts. but they would be guaranteed somewhat against injury. if you get injured, you can't play. you can get up to a million dollars the next year of your contract before they can let you go. there's no rookie wage scale. the regular season will begin as originally scheduled as the t m teams get back to work. trades will begin, teams can start signing their rookies. on thursday, those teams can cut players. by friday evening, the free agency frenzy begins and there are a couple of good ones, including real life receiver santonio holmes. a great photograph came out of all of this yesterday. new england patriots owner bob kraft and center jeff saturday. those are two rival teams. they have a lot of battles on the field, a big hug. bob kraft's wife died last week of cancer. he was shuttling back and forth between the negotiations and his wife's bedside. saturday saying, yes, this man

helped us save football. so kind of a nice moment to the owners and the players there. it's over. >> bop kraft is a good guy. >> it means a lot that he got the deal done. manager had a handlebar musta e mustache. anything to break the slump. played the red sox and lost their 15th consecutive game. could they break it last night? it won't get easier in the bronx playing the yankees. here we go again. first inning, mark teixeira, and the third run inning. derek jeter is muscling home runs out of the yard, you know you're in trouble. a shot to the opposite field for jeter. fourth inning, jeter hits a grounder to second. mariners can't get a break. the throw home hits the bat. jeter left the bat at home plate. can't get it done. seattle loses the 16th consecutive game. 16 in a row. eric wedge lost his handlebar

mustache and may be losing his job soon. >> the clouds are just hanging over them. when it goes bad, for whatever, it's just everything goes bad. >> yeah, the often is so anemic, it's hard to put in to words. even ichiro has a bad season. the twins are on the road against the texas rangers. then in the second inning, josh hamilton with an rbi double to right. it's quickly 5-0, texas. the third inning, ian kinsler is going to hit a three-run home run of his own. nick blackburn shelled for six runs and 11 hits didn't make it out of the third inning. this one got ugly with the score, 20-5. 20-5. >> showed seattle going through some real tough times now. but texas, man, they are on fire. >> they are on fire. they could go back to the world series the way they're playing. so with a score of 20 to 5, the twins warm up the right fielder,

michael godeyer. he pitches the eighth inning. >> really? >> not too bad. getting kinser to fly out. scoreless innings, smiles in the high fives and the dugout. the rangers put up 20 runs on 27 hits. the score, 20-6. yeah, they're great. texas rangers are going to be tough to beat. the debt ceiling debate did not stop the san francisco giants from stopping by the white house yesterday. the president honoring them for the world series championship. willy mays is there. that's the highlight of the day. there's willie. the president congratulating the team and turning his attention to the man standing in the back row. that's giants' closer brian wilson and his beard his tag line, fear the beard. >> must have been such a relief. >> that's the guy with the beard. where's he?

>> fear the beard. brian wilson is a good closer. just a little crazy. i like any good closer. i guess. >> it's good. it always helps you're crazy. all think it's crazy. >> john rocker of our time. minus some other stuff. see it on "morning joe." ♪ let me entertain you

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get your business booming? booming is putting more music in more people's hands. excuse me? my grandfather was born in this village. [ automated voice speaks foreign language ] [ male announcer ] in here, everyone speaks the same language. ♪ in here, forklifts drive themselves. no, he doesn't have it. yeah, we'll look on that. [ male announcer ] in here, friends leave you messages written in the air. that's it right there. [ male announcer ] it's the at&t network. and what's possible in here is almost impossible to say. republicans who used to run the congress on the two republican caucuses are being driven by the radical right wing

that is so in tune with the tea party. we should not let these extremists dictate the outcome of this debate or the direction of our country. the time for ideological extremist should end. >> 43 past the hour. time now for the must-read opinion pages. we're going to start with "the new york times" by david brooks. it's entitled congress in the lead. are you ready? >> yeah. tina, you said after you saw the speech, you thought it was

dated. david brooks saying "behind the times" like he's a step behind. >> i do think that the republicans seem to be winning this. simply being so absolutely unreasonable and so willing to be irresponsible that it seems to be working. that's a terrible thing for obama. he's left as the grown-up in the room. a grown-up who concedes everything. now left only with the six month thing to say no to. and he's going to have to say yes to that because he's going to go to default. he's going to go the next six months campaigning about an issue he didn't frame right in the first time. so it's a real problem for obama. >> what we need here is one of the ronald reagan moments where the president said i will veto this bill. if john boehner sends me a temporary extension that will not calm the markets, i will veto that bill.

he didn't do it last night. curious to see the follow-up conversations today. gene spuerling coming up. we need to start asking, will you veto the bill. until the president convinces republicans he will veto -- veto a bill, they're not going to fear him. and they're going to say, we can have -- >> they'll get what they want. >> they'll get exactly what they wan. >> which worries me. >> joe, that's exactly right. the phrase, "the old guard wins," even david brooks has come to recognize this. and you have to ask yourself, tina used pejorative language about republicans and conservatives. what did they do? they came to town. they promised folks they would fight even if it cost them their seats against any new taxes. they did. they've been beaten up, they've been abused. the ratings are down. they may have risked their seats. but they're winning. who dares wins. i do agree with you that if the president agrees that signing -- not signing a debt ceiling will not royal the markets but i go

back to what harold said earlier. if he believes that he's going to send down this market 1,000 points and damage the credit rating of his country and throw the world situation into chaos, the president of the united states has got to do what's responsible, even if it's a political defeat for him which it will be. >> we actually have an interesting one on "the daily beast" where we called all of the investor services and they say it may be a downgrade anyway. the fiddling has gone on so long. >> no matter what happens. >> which would be really ironic. >> what do you make of this, david brooks saying that the president is being beaten by people who have been around washington for a long time. they know how to play this game. the president does not know how to play the washington game. is that fair? >> i've said for sometime. i thought after you found and killed bin laden that the efforts should have been made more so at that point.

>> great window. >> incredible window to gain and build support for a deficit reduction package. the reason i think this is the responsible thing. i agree with pat. pat was saying he agreed with more. but you built up august 2 as a deadline, it is. the markets are going to react negatively and horribly around the globe. he's doing the challenging thing. the challenge now, david brooks is right, they made the wrong trade here. the wrong bet. now the president is doing the presidential thing. the question now is, do you embolden the freshmen republicans so much that they believe going forward that they never have to negotiate, never have to get it. >> of course you do. >> of course you do. >> i'm not convinced you're right. but the data evidence suggests you're right. >> bill clinton taught us a lesson in 1995 about washington being the art of the possible. what the freshman will be taught here if the president collapses.

again, i say this is a political analyst. a small government conservative. >> six months from now, we'll have to have this conversation again. >> why would it go differently? >> can i read from this, "the new york times," the republican wreckage --

the republicans won this debate because people believe that the government spends too much. "the new york times" editorial makes a great point. but they make the republican point when they argued about dysfunction of government. and the republicans retorted, yeah, you're right. it is dysfunction. they spend too much. >> is the bottom line, harold? is the bottom line that at the end of the day -- barnicle said this. politics aside, tax policy aside, entitlement spending aside, americans just think that the federal government spends too much. >> i don't think there's any doubt. you can look at the success of some of the governors around the country. there's a fundamental belief there. if you argue against the fundamental belief and you and i around the table have helped to do this, you have to get out and make the case. and president obama did not get out and make the case outside of washington enough to beat the old guard. >> it's about jobs, which is what americans really want to talk about. >> you know, pat buchanan, jimmy carter was the political victim of many things that went very

badly in '79 and '80. there was a general aspect of that. jimmy carter paid for the sins of excesses from 1964 forward, as far as the great society, the massive spending, the guns and butter. i wonder if barack obama now is feeling the heat for the decade of just extraordinarily wreckless spending on both parties' part. >> yeah, there's no question about it, joe, the problem in "the new york times" editorial is that it's rooted in unreality. there's no way john boehner can get a tax increase through his caucus without being thrown out of his job. they should have looked at that and realized that from the outset. all right, ahead in the next hour, senator dick durbin. we'll be right back. ♪ stars when you shine

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i told leaders they can't come up with a bill in a few days that can pass both houses of congress and something i can sign. despite our disagreements, we found common ground before. i believe enough members of both parties will put politics aside and help us make progress. president obama came to congress in january and requested business as usual.

yet, another routine increase in the national debt. but we in the house said, not so fast. here was a president asking me for the largest debt increase in american history on the heels of the largest spending bing in american history. here's what we got with the massive spending bing -- a new health care bill that most americans never asked for. a stimulus bill that's more effective in producing the material for late-night comedians than it was for producing jobs, and a national debt that got so out of hand it sparked a crisis without precedent for my lifetime or yours. welcome back to "morning joe." we have junior with us along with pat buchanan in washington. also, the editor and publisher of "the nation" magazine. good to have you onboard again. a lot going on today. we also have joining us for this block, capitol hill correspondent for nbc news, kelly o'donnell.

good morning, kelly. >> good morning. >> the general view of the papers this morning, the internet, the blogosphere, david brooks, is that the president has been boxed into a corner by these republican freshmen. and it appears, at least this morning, that many people believe the republican freshmen have won this battle. what's the feeling on the hill? >> well, certainly, they have had a voice larger than any freshman class. maybe in modern memory. and perhaps it is their newness that has given them a certain kind of bravado and they've come together in pretty big numbers and they've been sticking together. so that has tilted things in their way in a way we might not have expected otherwise. back in the days where the leadership can kind of bring down the hammer on new members. not so much, now. and the president, as much as he has the great advantage of using the east room and his terrific skills giving a speech and trying to set a tone and trying to strike that middle ground,

which he did last night, this really does come back to the daily workings of capitol hill, for good or for bad. and right now, certainly speaker john boehner is hoping he's got the votes. it's unclear. there are still some of those members who are in that more conservative wing who are expressing some displeasure with the package that they're seeing. they're not necessarily sure. but the whips office, i talked to them. and they're not doing an account yet. they want to give it a little breathing room. so certainly there's been an impact that the tea party can claim in this argument. but also majority leader harry reid is trying to come off perhaps more giving than typical. he has said he's crafted his senate plan in a way that's given republicans a lot of what they want -- more cuts than the increase. trying to do that in a way that might bring them along. i will be a hot few days here, joe, mikka. >> i'm sure it will. "the new york times" editori

editorializing about the republican wreckage, criticizing the freshman for not compromising. the type of editorials we've seen all throughout this country. david brooks write in this op-ed, after last night's speech, it looks like, quote, the old guard wins. >> it's too early to tell. but we do know as a country have been held hostage by reckless extremist fanatics that the president is ensnare in a trap, a political crisis should not be a crisis. the real crisis is the joblessness in this country. he is in this trap i would argue because last night he showed a little more grit than kumbaya. there's a lot too much kumbaya in the president for the moment we're living in. real leadership does demand compromise. real leadership can't be defined by compromise. he spoke about compromise. he has not laid out strong principles, conviction in these

last months that would have shaped a different debate. he spoke of reagan. do you remember doing the primaries, 2008. he said he admired reagan, the clintons jumped all over him. he meant he admired reagan because reagan reset the terms of the debate. the president had the opportunity to come out of the greatest financial crisis since the depression. and where i sit, progressive community, citizens who care about the state of this country, the joblessness crisis, wonder why he has not seized this opportunity to speak more effectively. >> why is it that george w. bush when he was sitting with a 28% approval rating and had nancy pelosi as speaker of the house still got what he wanted, still got a surge. and many other things through the house and the senate and this president who's been very popular. around 50% in terrible times, cannot seem to -- >> i think there are a number of factors. the number of factors.

first of all, the president did pass two major pieces of legislation. they were diluted and gutted by lobbyists, etc., financial reform health care. that's a testament to someone. this president passed a health care reform bill without a single republican vote, which is astonishing. >> well, no. he had in the credit majorities as well, huge. >> not huge. but also -- >> 59 to 41. >> not to apologize for the president in terms of the leadership, better to be feared than loved. but let us not ignore something that the president said last night which is critical. we live in a system in dc which is -- it is stacked against ordinary middle class low-income people. this system is warped by corporate money, lobbyist money. that's played a role in ways we haven't seen in decades in this country. that's important to pay attention to -- you need compromise, but you can say to americans, i am on your side.

get the government off of your backs and your side. the president haven't spoken to those who are paying in this country. last night's attempt was to be above the fray. i thought he was more of an educator in chief even though it was a little bit more grit than usual but too late in so many ways he doesn't shape the debate. >> the president's message was very moderate, very middle of the road, something that i think independents probably like hearing. at the same time, still as david brooks, tina, others have said, it sounded like he was talking in the past, even having that moderate, reasonable center ed statement puts him out of the debate. >> last night was another attempt by the president to frame it. his challenge is he keeps framing it to the same people. you've got to get out and make

this case. we said before we got here, katrina, that if you look at -- the president is going to take a page out of president clinton. but you have to get out and pound and pound away and frame this all across the country. i think both president obama and speaker boehner said last night for the same reason they could stand up to the house republican freshmen. if you're john boehner, you have to understand a big thing -- he got rolled also, he want add big deal. if his speakership is going to be determined in the course of it of what freshmen, reckless, a lot of them have been just unreasonable. they're running this place. >> you say they're unreasonable. >> whatever you want to call them. >> but i'm saying -- >> on this issue, though, they are in charge. >> i'm saying the take in the national media has been that these people are radical and reckless and extremist. but at the end of the day, hold on -- at the end of the day, they get everything that they

want. they may just prove to be the most cunning and rational of all of the players in washington, d.c. >> amen. >> if they win -- >> if they win everything. >> they have been the most purposeful and determined negotiators in this whole thing. i'm not saying they're radical. i think their ideas pause they refuse to compromise maybes them unreasonable. they have figured out that the american people are more interested in cutting government spending than anything else. >> let me disagree with harold, though. i think there's a radically wrong interpretation of the 2010 election. this white house and -- is viewing it as a referendum on spending. when i think, in fact, it was a referendum on jobs and the economy. >> right. >> i don't disagree with you. >> so you have a president now and a white house which has bought into and legitimizes this idea that deficit reduction is the key issue. job creation is the best deficit reduction plan we could have. we need to think in terms of new bold ways and the president

could lead in that way outside of the country. take the message to the country that is ready to hear it. >> i want to build on what katrina just said. i think political analysts, historians in the future, will look back and laugh, i think, mock, leaders on both sides for the first at least three years of this president's term. in 2009 and 2010. what did we say every morning on this show? they're talking abhealth care. they're obsessing on health care. americans are focused on jobs. what has congress been obsessing on in '11? 2011? and will in 2012? well, the debt. and obviously, you could say that both of these issues are extraordinarily critical. and, yet, katrina is right. in middle america, a debate on the debt ceiling is inside baseball. it is about jobs.

getting america back to work. and every poll, pat, in every poll. >> that's exactly right, joe. that's what the country wants desperately. but we're in this particular battle. and katrina said, what? she said these republicans are reckless, extremist fanatics. if barack obama believes that and the democrats believe that, you ought to realize -- they've come to washington. their interpretation is, we were told to go to washington and to blockincrease. we're going to do that if it costs us our seats. realize that's reality. you're not going to get any tax increases and the president has been talking about it, demanding it, beating them up. they haven't budged an inch. and at the end of the day, they didn't get any tax increases. he should have known that going in. >> the president was still talking about it last night. i want to get to kelly o'donnell. but first, the president talking about the wealthiest needing to contribute.

>> based on what we've seen in the past few weeks, we know what to expect six months from now. the house of representatives will once again refuse to prevent default unless the rest of us accept their cuts-only approach. again, they will refuse to ask the wealthiest americans to give up their tax cuts. or deductions. again, they will demand harsh cuts to programs like medicare. and once again, the economy will be held captive unless they get their way. this is no way to run the greatest country on earth. it's a dangerous game that we've never played before. and we can't afford to play it now. not when the jobs and livelihoods of so many families are at stake. we can't allow the american people to become collateral damage to washington's political warfare. >> kelly o'donnell, the president laid out an equation there about what the republicans don't want and what the democrats are willing to give. is he right?

>> well, what i am so struck by when you talk about the new members of congress who are republicans aligned with the tea party is how they don't seem to have a sense of the old pecking order. for people in the senate, mike lee of utah who is the youngest member of the senate at 40 was the front man of the cut cap and balance that plan that republicans thought was the better way to go. and it was interesting to sit in meetings and press conferences here and have the senior sort of venerable voices of the republican party off to the side and this younger guy up front arguing it. and when i meet house members here who are associated with the tea party, they are really crystal clear in their minds about what they believe they were sent here to do. and not only is it not taxes, but they talk about a structural change about how the government works. and that sounds kind of wonky. but they talk about the government not being trustworthy with spending. and so that's why they have been so -- some would call it rabid.

others call it determined, in this whole fight. it's been interesting for me to watch how their force, whether it's conviction because they haven't been through all of the battles before. john boehner has been here 20 years. he's seen the ups and downs and seems more open to trying to find a way to negotiate but not give it all away. that's certain think the tone you get from boehner who i know that yesterday began by saying he's the speaker of the house for all members, not just republicans. and is describing this republican plan as being the product of the bipartisan negotiations with the senate. senate democrats would argue with that. but trying to drop in the hints of it's not only republicans, and just watching that arc has been interesting to me. how you've got the really strong voices and figuring out, is there any way to try to look for speaker boehner, like he's in the middle ground too. >> real quick before we let you go, one week away from the

august -- is it possible to get a deal before then? we have six days, basically. b, if it is possible, what does it look like? do the boehner and reid plan somehow merge into something that gets to somewhere on lowering our debt? >> as much as it looks like people have gone to their corners, i'm told that the senior level negotiators, the staffers who are experts in these areas, are, in fact, still talking. democrats and republicans, looking for a way to kind of find an answer on what they consider the trigger. and by that, i mean if you're going to have a chunk of debt ceiling increased for the next year or so, what would you have to do to get the next piece. the republicans want to see another vote. democrats don't. so is there some common ground they can find there? now, just in terms of the rules, joe, when you were here, you probably knew that better than me. i find there's a new rule all the time that can make something go faster if we really want to. but we don't know exactly how it's going to happen. but everyone says they're not going to default. they're looking at the rule

books and find some way to find a bit of compromise. i can't get a sense yet if people are confident that can happen. >> kelly o'donnell, thank you very much. joining us now from the white house, gene sperling, director of the national economic council and assistant to the president for economic policy. and you've said, sir, that both sides have to be willing to put some of their sacred cows on the table? well, you can't have a deficit reduction plan that's going to ask seniors and the middle class to do all of the sacrifice. where are they? where are the other sacred cows? >> i think as the president said last night, you know? you have to have balance, you have to have fear and sacrifice. we've divided government. it doesn't have to be dysfunctional government. but as the president said, you just can't have at a time when we are approaching a potential crisis, you can't have a my way way or the highway approach. the president has gone the extra mile. he's bent over backwards repeatedly to put forward a proposal that doesn't reflect

his ideal proposal but something he believes reflects the kind of balance that could pass, that could get done. and that requires compromise. that's what he's calling for yesterday -- last night. >> if he doesn't get the compromise, how far is he willing to go? how serious is he about making sure that this is compromise? >> i think the president went on tv last night to make that case, it's unthinkable that we would put our country at risk in the first default in the history of our country, something to do irreparable damage to our credit rating. could be a permanent tax on americans who borrow for their homes, cars, states, localities, simply because we couldn't come together and find a degree of compromise. and simply because we couldn't do this in a long enough way to take the uncertainty off of the economy. it's not good for the economy in

a constant threat we would not go in to default or the default of america is a bargaining chip. >> gene, the president deliver add speech to the american people. took it to the american people. it was, i think most people in the middle would agree, a very balanced approach that you're talking about that the president was talking about last night. but at the end of the day, if the republicans are not going to compromise with this president, it comes down to one real question -- and that is, if john boehner doesn't get the republicans to move on taxes, on tax loopholes, if he doesn't get them to move on other issues, on spending, if he doesn't get them to move on a permanent debt ceiling increase, will this president veto a bill that john boehner and congress sends to him? >> look, we're facing a stalemate right now. our issue now is not what happens if legislation comes to the president's desk. our issue is that we're in

stalemate and we need some kind of a compromise to break the stalemate. >> right. >> and the president has actually given several different paths to get there. the president has been willing to entertain the -- >> so -- >> would the president sign a temporary debt ceiling increase, a six month -- is that a possibility? >> i think the president has been pretty clear on that. he believes that extending the debt limit just for six months, putting our country and everybody on notice that we're going to go through this same thing six months from now, that default, the risk of default, is going to become somehow a permanent part of our budget negotiations and our budget battles. >> so is the president's position this morning, gene, then that he will veto a six-month extension? >> i think the president has been pretty clear, he duh not find that acceptable. but we're not going to start this morning doing high politically veto threats on legislation that can hypothetically get there. let's get constructive. different paths to get there. it doesn't take that much.

it takes a minimal amount of compromise to get a downpayment on the deficit reduction and that we can extend the debt limit into 2013 as speaker boehner and majority leader cantor has previously supported, the president supported, everyone in the market supports. because if we don't do that, we still leave this cloud of uncertainty on the economy. that's about the worst thing we can do for jobs and growth and small businesses right now. >> pat buchanan is with us from washington. pat? gene, you said that my way or the highway approach is really outrageous and won't work. but the tea party said my way or the highway on taxes and there's not going to be any taxes in the reid bill or the boehner bill. now, if the bill comes out of the congress, as joe says, down to the white house. and it's saturday or sunday and the president's veto would put the country in to default, are you saying that there is a real possibility that he will veto such a bill and put the country into default? >> let me go back to the

beginning of your question. you say republicans wouldn't be willing to do this. the president sat twice with speaker boehner who was willing to put as much as $800 billion in revenue on the table as part of tax reform. 16 republican senators have been willing to agree with the gang of six to have revenues as part of tax reform, much more significantly than this president. so what the president really said is that there is just a faction in washington that is keeping us from this type of a comp roar mize. this type of ball llamas that could get us there. i know that everybody wants to go now to the doomsday scenarios. we should start with what are the constructive approaches we could get there. the has bent over backwards for bipartisan, balance, compromise. time for others to do the same. that's the sole focus this morning. >> you're right. there are republicans that have supported the closing of the tax loopholes. tom coburn came up with, i believe, $1 trillion.

and -- and in revenue over the next ten years. so -- >> no, no, that's absolutely right. we have seen signs of bipartisanship here, of balance, of compromise. and, again, the president has given several paths to getting there. the majority leader, the republican leader of the senate gave a path. it wasn't the optimal path, but the president said that could be acceptable. that could be a starting point for further entitlement reform and tax reform without putting the threat of default over our economy. we have seen this repeatedly. now's the time when people need to be creative. they need to work together. they need to put country first. and not dig in for anything other than what's best for our economy, for our country, for jobs. >> gene sperling, thank you very much. >> katrina? >> thanks for having me. >> let me ask you really quickly as we go, as we go to break here. he did not come out and say the president will veto a short-term

extension? they're leaving that door open. >> i think what's important last night that the president spoke with medicare. i think the mobilization kept the white house from undermining social security for millions of people. medicare, rising health care costs. security -- social security doesn't contribute a dime to the deficit. i think i go out on a limb. we're going to avoid this crisis. this debt default. but we're in to another crisis when we come out of it. we're in to a crisis that millions of people around this country are living with in pain every day. and this white house and washington, d.c. as president obama said powerfully last night, i'll paraphrase it, don't let americans be collateral damage to a madness that i's inflicting dc and the elite that debt reduction is the crisis of our time. majority whip dick durbin. >> also. >> and dad's coming on.

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this weekend, we offered the president a bipartisan proposal to avoid default and get a serious plan to get our financial house in order and he rejected it out of hand. both parties are willing to work in good faith. i would suggest that the president reconsider their offer rather than veto their country into default. >> with us now from capitol hill, democratic leaders from illinois, dick durbin and with us on set is "new york times" columnist charles -- >> hi, charles. >> senator durbin, great to talk to you. >> thanks, joe. >> a frustrating morning for you. you have work in the gang of six. you have made compromises that you didn't want to make. you have dealt with cranky

republicans like saxby chambliss and tom coburn, locked in a room with these guys for long time. and you are willing to compromise. things that mean a great deal to you. yet it looks this morning that those who are not willing to compromise at all are going to enyou the day. what's going on? >> there are 32 senators now almost evenly divided between the two parties who stepped up and said they think the gang of six approach was a grown-up, responsible, thoughtful way to deal with the long-term deficit. we put everything on the table, revenue, entitlements, spending, and we did it in a thoughtful ball lapsed way. the same thing that the bowles simpson commission did. we know this is the path. but the notion we cannot touch hedge fund managers and the hedge hogs can't pay our share of taxes. if you start with that -- with the standoff we have today.

>> and that is a standoff. mikka? >> what are prepub republicans behind close doors. why don't they say what's going to happen? >> they're afraid of a primary thing. they're afraid they signed some tax pledge to a fellow here in washington that if they somehow talk about revenue, they're going to talk about a primary fight and lose. they don't want to face that. there are enough senate republicans who stood up and said the country is more important than any tax pledge to some individual. i think we need it on both sides. we need to come together and realize that the american people could give a tinkers dorm about some pledge signed to some individual. they want this country to move forward. >> he said that before the

break. i could give a tinker's star. >> yes, a bit more measured than am i. >> yes, quickly. we are one week away from the kind of description and characterization some have glitch on the impact of the markets. i think the impact will be huge. where do we go? you've been the most reasonable voice on the democratic side. you indicated strongly over the last several months your reluctance to make cuts to important safety net programs that you decide in the best interest of the count troy do that. but it doesn't look like republicans are willing to do it. what happens now? i hope we -- the gang of six and simpson bowles makes it most sense. it's the best framework. doesn't look like we're going to get there. the question is, what we heard last night and what gene sperling said, the unwillingnd to give anything. are we closer to the kind of cuts that mr. reid and boehner talked about or the more

sensible gang of six. you said 32, that puts you 28 away. what happens next? what happens in this week to make the markets feel better and the regular guy living in chicago or ordinary worker in memphis, tennessee. >> what it gets down to is harry reid put on the table a sensible approach. it's a reasonable compromise. we're going to make significant cuts in spending which the republicans have asked for. we're going to move forward with the extension of the debt ceiling. so it doesn't become a political football. people say, well this, is all about the next campaign. it's about the economy. and what we're told by the agencies is that if you lurch from month to month in another one of these pitch battles in washington, we're going to downgrade the american economy. which means interest rates will go up and the average family is going to feel it in their credit card bill. what they pay for a car or a home. that's a tax we don't want to impose on america. it can be avoided if reasonable people follow the president's lead last night. reach a compromise. let's move forward.

>> senator durbin, willie geist. if we don't move forward, that heaves it country in a tenuous position. as you pointed out here this morning, what happens -- i think it's important to point out to viewers in your view on august 2 if there's no deal reached. how serious is this? some republicans have accused the democrats and president of using that as the artificial deadline, frankly. >> i listen to the republican presidential candidates. the former governor of minnesota who says he's praying for default. michelle bachmann, hoping they don't have a default. they don't understand the reality. here's what the reality will on august 3 if we default. we'll have $172 billion to pay our bills in august. and the bills total $306 billion. we'll have to make a choice. social security recipients. veterans, those in combat, those who work on our government, interest on our debt. difficult choices.

we don't need to face the catastrophe. if we showed maturity. this battle needs to be put behind us and we need to move forward. we need to create jobs and get this economy cooking. >> senator durbin, great to see you. >> great to see you too. how our default could affect our standing in the world. former security advisors next on "morning joe." almost tastes like one of jack's cereals. fiber one. uh, forgot jack's cereal. [ jack ] what's for breakfast? um... try the number one! [ jack ] yeah, this is pretty good. [ male announcer ] half a day's worth of fiber. fiber one. this past year alone yeah, this is pretty good. there was a 93% increase in cyber attacks. in financial transactions... on devices... in social interactions... and applications in the cloud.

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i have travelled around the region, a lot of people asked me about how the united states is going to resolve our debt ceiling challenge. well, let me assure you, we understand the stakes. we know how important this is for us. and how important it is for you. the political wrangling in washington is intense right now. but these kinds of debates have been a constant in our political life throughout the history of our republic. >> nothing to see here. no -- >> move along, move along. >> 38 past the hour. >> joining us now from washington, former national security advisor for president

advisors. dr. brzenszki. you bring to the table a study on the wealth gap that i would love to talk to my dad about. but let's go through it first of all. there's some changes. starting here with 20 05. what are we looking at? >> right, so the gap between the wealth of whites and blacks is now -- there's twenty times more wealth for whites than blacks. this is after the great recession. there's 18 times as much wealth for whites than hispanics. and what you see is the great recession -- had a disproportionate effect on everyone but whites. the wealth of whites decreased by 16%. hispanics, 66%. the wealth of asians that was

higher than whites going in to the great recession, was reduced by 54%. only 16% reduction among whites in america. >> bottom line? >> it's growing. >> this is the greatest it's been since the data has been kept and twice what it was -- the gap is twice what it was in the whole two decades preceding the great recession. >> we have that going on. plus the debate in washington over the debt ceiling. bickering, whatever you want to call it. it doesn't seem like it's going anywhere. how do we look from the outside looking in, dad, in terms of our fiscal health and also where our society is going? >> it doesn't look good. doesn't look good at all. the problem is that the world sees the united states as a country that is gridlocked, incapable of making major decisions, incapable of developing a social policy that

is based on compromise and social justice. and increasingly incapable of promoting a foreign policy that contributes to greater global population and stability. and this is extremely serious. because the united states is still the key pivot of world affairs. and in that respect, an america that is performing well at home that is credible is an essential component of global stability. >> so a lotf different experts, like now, have similar criticism. talking about china. talking about different countries surging ahead of us. what, though, is a prescription for moving forward in a constructive way so we can get out of this rut? >> well, first of all, dealing with a domestic problem. you can't conduct a foreign policy abroad which is purely based in our capacity to project forward. we have to be able to get the world some evidence of an america that helps with social

problems that deals responsibly with the economic difficulties and that above all given the fact that we are a huge society that we can manage our affairs on the basis of compromise. you know, it's a paradox of our time, both domestic and internationally is that we live in an age of empowerment. people have been denied a share of political power. domestic and worldwide are becoming more assertive. but the ability to translate that into a compromise is now much more difficult. and we're not exactly setting a good example for the rest of the world in that regard. >> dr. brzenszki, pat buchanan is with us. >> whether we call it intransigence or position, the republicans aren't going to agree with tax increases and harry reid accepted that, as has boehner. so there won't be any tax

increases. when the debt ceiling, as it will but i believe, is sent down to the president of the united states say with three or four days or two days before the perceived default, he prepret my mu -- he pretty much has to define that rather than drop the situation of the world into a financial crisis. does he not. >> i'm not sure that's the right definition or no problem. there may be no tax increases but we have a problem with significant loopholes for people who have extraordinarily rich and some of whom have made a lot of money in recent years, larger by speculatinspeculating, not b contributing to national wealth but by managing the financial system in such a fashion that it could clean up to degrees that are just unimaginable to most people. i find it fretful to imagine that these loopholes will be closed. >> i don't believe -- >> i can't see the republicans arguing that's fair. >> may not be fair. but you're not going to get them closed. not even in the lead bill.

the president of the united states in my judgment cannot veto a debt ceiling increase when he said himself the potential on the other side we're risk a ck catastrophe. he can't even do that if he's defeated. >> i think it's a huge obligation. right now republican party is being blackmailed by a segment, a strong segment in the republican party but does not represent the naggal will. the tea party does not speak for the majority of americans. the argument is unless you go along with 100%, we're going to let the country rock. >> that is the best way i heard. >> that's right. >> the obligation to avert a fiscal catastrophe is a mutual obligation. >> precisely. >> i wonder, dr. brzenski what

you believe the long-term ramifications will be if you agree with alan greenspan that the disparity between the rich and poor is growing at such a rapid pace that that causes a threat, not only to this country, but to -- to our version of capitalism as well. our economic system cannot continue moving forward the way it has for 200 years if the rich keep getting richer at the rate they are. and the poor keep getting poorer. >> well, i have been saying this on this show now for a couple of years. >> yes. >> i'm in fact surprised that that hasn't been more social tension. social conflict. if this trend continues, and particularly if fiscal management, fiscal responsibility is going to be based on the principle that the poor should become poorer, we're going to move in that phase. because with the combination of increasing poverty, relative

poverty, but also absolute poverty for a great many of americans, i think that combination is absolutely lethal and could become explosive. >> pakistan. >> it is. harold ford, make no mistake of it. i saw this as a small government conservative. i say this as a free market capitalist. i will tell you a lot of people who voted for pat buchan nab two times for president would agree with me here that if you have hedge fund managers pays significantly less in taxes, our secretaries, our schoolteachers, if you have the largest corporations on the planet paying 0% in u.s. taxes, that is going to cause eventually social unrest. that's not a democratic issue or a republican issue. >> that's a problem. >> global financial institutions including imf made clear -- this challenge, unemployment and the growing disparity are the greatest threats. the question i have for dr. brzenszki, this morning, what advice would you have to achieve

the most articulate and succinct frame -- i heard your frame of it, why we find ousts in this mess, the kind of shared sacrifi sacrifice. a week away from it. how do you do it, doctor. >> i think the majority in this country which involves moderate and responsible republicans and intelligent and responsible democrats. i think the number is combined in these two groups i think are still a majority. they're the ones to work with. i'm disappointed by speaker boehner because i thought one point he was potentially a national leader. but the performance last night was a personal attack on the president at a moment of grave national gravity. and i think that was not becoming. and i don't think that really indicated leadership. i hope he recoups, because he restrikes me as an enabled person. but time is passing and passing rapidly. but to come in a kind of a willing hostage to extremists in his own party who are a majority in this country, i think it's a

big political error as well as a disservice to the country. >> okay. that about sums it up. >> yeah. >> it sums it up. stay all morning. >> it does. but that's helpful. thank very much, doctors. >> thank you so much being with us. >> good to be with you guys. >> charles, we're going to dig deeper on your numbers coming up. because the disparity is growing between rich and poor, between black and white. the haves and have-notes getting bigger than ever. >> up next, washington can't make a deal. but we'll talk about it more. maybe they can at some point. [ male announcer ] this is the network. a network of possibilities.

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welcome back to morning joe. a little break from what is going on in washington to talk about the real big story. the resolution of the nfl lockout.

it's over. >> i'm surprised. oh, my gosh. they made a deal. >> compromise. >> someone can compromise. two parties got in a room and worked it out for the benefit of the country. yesterday, players representing all 32 teams unanimously approved a new ten-year labor agreement after owners approved it last week. nfl commissioner roger goodell had been hoping to deliver. >> i want to thank all of the players for their leadership and for securing the long-term game. having a ten-year agreement is extraordinarily important to our game and most importantly to our fans. everybody worked hard, everybody had a passion, and everybody believes in this game of football and what we can do to make our game better. and i think this agreement is

going to make our game better. we're grateful for all of the work that both parties did. >> it's a ten-year deal without any chance of opt out for either side. so you have ten years now with the nfl. >> why did the owner's revenue go up? >> owners take 53% of the revenue. there's specifics in there that make it an even deal. >> what about entitlements? >> 16 game schedule. no 18 game schedule. that's been shelled for a couple of years. there is some small guarantee with the contract. >> we always say it's outrageous in the nfl that these guys go out and get their bodies completely crushed, destroyed. >> it's the only professional league that does not owner bob kraft on the right and those are two rival teams.

a player and owner hugging there. there's a lot of back story there. bob krat's wife kraft's wife died just last week. great moment there yesterday. >> oh, gosh. all right. more "morning joe" in a minute. . they're itchy, dry and uncomfortable. i can't wait to take 'em out, throw 'em away and never see them again. [ male announcer ] know the feeling? get the contacts you've got to see to believe. acuvue® oasys brand contact lenses with hydraclear® plus technology, keeping your eyes exceptionally comfortable all day long. it feels like it disappeared on my eye. [ male announcer ] discover why it's the brand eye doctors trust most for comfort. if you have astigmatism, there's an acuvue® oasys lens for that too, realigning naturally with every blink. ask your doctor for acuvue® oasys brand.

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the first time a deal was passed, a predecessor said this, would you rather reduce deficits and interest rates from those that are not paying their fair share or would you rather accept larger deficit rates and higher

unemployment? and i think i know your answer. those words were spoken by ronald reagan. but today many republicans in the house refuse to consider this kind of balanced approach. an approach that was pursued not only by president reagan but by the first president bush, president clinton, by myself, and many republicans and democrats in the united states senate. >> the sad truth is that the president wanted a blank check months ago and wants a blank check today. this is not going to happen. you see, this is no stalemate in congress. the house passed to raise the debt limit by bipartisan support. and filled with phony accounting and washington gimmicks, we're going to pass another bill, one that was developed with support by the bipartisan leadership of the u.s. senate. good morning. it's 8:00 a.m. on the east

coast. harold forward junior and pat buchanan. >> if i were grading both of these gentlemen, both of these leaders on performance, i would have given them an a. i thought both of them have compelling messages. i agreed with one more than the other. >> which one, joe? >> well, i better not say, actually. >> okay. >> but, pat, why did they do that? it was actually, i think, should be charring to the markets because no new ground was -- there were two political speeches. what was the purpose of it other than making all of america watching it just a little more nervous? >> you know, joe, that's a very good question. clearly boehner's responding to

the president of the united states and i thought boehner was very much above his game and that the president is always very he will kwant and has a better podium. why did the president do it? it was unrealistic what he was saying. the corporate jets and taxes on the billionaires and all of that. that is yesterday. there aren't going to be any tax increases. neither harry reid nor boehner in their separate plans have any revenue enhancement or tax increases and they are the only two plans on the table. the president has been benched, basically. he is out of the process, except as a final individual who is either going to veto us into default or not. you're going to get an increase in the debt ceiling. i thought boehner far more realistic, far more grounded in reality. >> i thought, again, that the president did very, very well last night and i think you're right. john boehner was above his game. certainly at least as far as delivery goes. but the fact that both of these

gentlemen gave primetime addresses, delivered political speeches, broke absolutely no ground and, in fact, just made a lot of people that were watching say, even supporters of the president saying, this concerns us because we're basically where we were when this all began. >> well, i agree. i thought obama was very -- did very well last night but it also did seem kind of retro in the sense that the whole tax situation is off the table any way. it's like, why was he saying that again? one of the problems of this dynamic is they can't agree to anything that doesn't humiliate obama. so even when he gives a concession, they want to humiliate him more. so nothing he can give, in a sense, is enough for them. except this whole question of continuing through the 2012, which i think is a disaster, because all it means is surely in the end it's a disaster for

the gop. why is it better for them to be in the midst of this conversation in the election year? why do they think the american people makes them like the gop more? i don't think it can. it looks like everyone is totally irresponsible here. >> maybe you heard the political strategy but what i heard was defeatism. i heard this while it was going on and chuck todd mentioned it afterwards. past tense. i tried and went and met with them as though this were done and over with. set this up to make a deal or put more pressure on them and the end the president says, please call your congressman. the president of the united states begging people to call their congressman because that's where we are and that's what he needs the people to do. >> yeah. and you're right. and tina was talking about the president putting tax increases on the table and he was talking about closing loopholes that certainly we have talked to on this show, harold.

in fact, the president, as far as his policy prescription, sounded very, very reasonable. and sounded like the outlines of a grand bargain that i think a lot of people would support. >> but it's like he lost that framing six months ago. it's almost like the narrative that he drew was a really good narrative but seems like moments have passed. >> and, again, why did he do this last night? i just don't understand. >> if you are someone that doesn't watch all of this very closely as we do -- >> right. >> -- and as some people, not only in new york but in washington do, you probably found both of them not only disappointing but as i heard this morning from someone who follows it and wants it done, get done with it. get over with this. we're sick of seeing this back and forth. as much as the positioning was probably important, i heard political speeches last night. the president sounded as if he was positions for 12, boehner was positioning his own.

both of them need to understand and i think two weeks ago i would not have agreed with you that this would hurt republicans. but i'm not convinced this helps them if there's another vote. i think people are so disgusted. >> yeah. >> with this process in government. i think the most important and truthful thing that the president said last night was, people may have voted for a divided government and the problem is that boehner and the president are going to be blamed for that. >> does he look like a bad negotiator or the grown-up in the room? >> that's what they were both trying to achieve last night. i'm not convinced that either one -- i think the president gave a better speech. >> well, speaking from the east room of the white house, the president did make it clear that he doesn't approve of john boehner's plan to raise the debt ceiling. >> for the past several weeks, republican house members have essentially said that the only way they will vote to prevent america's first ever default is if the rest of us agree to their

deep spending cuts only approach. the new approach that speaker boehner unveiled today, which would temporarily extend the debt ceiling in exchange for spending cuts would force us to once again face the threat of default just six months from now. in other words, it doesn't solve the problem. >> the president also reminded congress that they had to find a compromise and said he could actually back senate majority leader harry reid's plan that pat was just talking about, noting that it would ensure that the same debate wouldn't return in six months. and towards the end of the speech, president obama asked the american people for help. >> the american people may have voted for a divided government but they didn't vote for a dysfunctional government. so i'm asking you all to make your voice heard. if you want a balanced approach to reducing the deficit, let your member of congress know. if you believe we can solve this problem through compromise, send

that message. >> so, pat, you thought the president delivered a very eloquent speech last night. do you think that he's going to be able to get callers from across america to move one member of congress his direction? >> joe, this is what i mean. it's irrelevant. he says we can't have an unbalanced approach spending cuts only. what does he think harry reid's bill is? boehner's bill is? neither has tax increases. that is passe. it is gone. his speech was unheroic in this sense. he seems overly concerned that we're going to have to do this again in six months, that they are going to have to raise the debt ceiling. we've had short-term debt ceilings before. if you take the reid bill and take the phoniness out of it and

the boehner bill, they are not that far apart and what we're going to get now is the tea parties already won the battle on spending cuts alone and i think they may yet win the battle on a short term debt ceiling because we can't put together a big one in one week's time. and you notice the president had no statement in there, i will veto a short-term debt ceiling. what happened to that? >> he did not have that in there, pat. i'm just wondering, would you? if you're in the president's position, or you were the president's advisor, you've advised many presidents before. would you not tell him to stand up to his opponents? >> i would not tell the president of the united states to veto a short-term debt ceiling if as a result i'm going to throw my country into default over what? the president was willing to accept a clean debt ceiling with nothing. now boehner's going to give him a debt ceiling with a trillion dollars in cuts. why would he reject the good --

i mean, simply because it's not the best. >> i think we've had this discussion on the show. pat and i sparred a bit. i think pat, unfortunately, from a democrat's standpoint, i think that you are more right than wrong. if the president has to accept a short-term plan, which is looking more and more likely in the front pages of international papers, saying to continue to remind us a threaten of a downgrade, it's the right thing to do at the moment. but if he's serious about reducing cuts and raising revenue, he's going to have to get on the road over the next several weeks to make this case. i understand his point, asking people members of congress, but the president -- you know, the president doesn't ask people to call the members of congress. he's got to be out leading the case. i think he's tried valianly. he's got to make this case over and over and over again. >> you say you blame the

freshman republican. >> for us not reaching an agreement right now. >> what do you say to the president's own base when the president at this point seems to be saying the tea party members are extreme? so i'm going to cave in on taxes? so they win. i'm going to cave in on spending cuts? so they win. and then if at the end of the process he gives us temporary extension, which it looks like he's going to do, it looks like the tea party members are the best negotiators in town, harold. >> well, they have been the most determined negotiators in town. >> what does that say about the president? >> i'm not -- i said unfortunately you guys are right. >> you're missing my point. my point is this. if you're president of the united states, i'm sorry. i would stare down my opposition and say, okay, you want to take us over the cliff? guess what i'm going to do. i'm going to put a claim out every day and if you want to

take america over the cliff because you don't get 100% of what you want, that's going to be on your hands and i am willing to stare you down. the president won't do that. why? >> well, joe, here's what he out to do. >> let me answer the question one second. the president is being responsible here in a large way as well. we have a downgrade that is serious. now, none of us know what the repurcha repercussions will be. >> they are going to be horrific. the point is, does the president allow his opposition to frame this debate for the next two careers? >> tina said it well earlily. >> he did not frame it as well as he could. he did not make the case as long as he could. we have to avoid a downgrade. i think the consequences will not only be horrific but -- >> but the freshman republican win. >> for a moment, it's as if their position is going to prevail. the president has to get out and frame this. what the republicans are protecting the wealthiest

americans. you said that. that point was not made emphatically and repeatedly enough and i hope that the president does that. >> so you're saying accept the six months and go on the road? >> that looks like where we're going. >> i understand what harold is saying. >> and i understand what you're saying. >> and, again, i'm not looking at this i'd logically. i'm not even choosing sides here. i'm just saying, as a political analyst i'm stunned that the president is going to deliver to his opposition total and complete victory. i would not do it if i were sitting in that chair. >> and the reason this is happening, the tea party and the republicans have the whip hand. you cannot get ten cents in revenue out of the house unless they vote for it and they said we're not voting for t the president is going to wind up with the debt ceiling on his desk. i would do what harold said.

i'm doing this for the good of the country. i don't want to risk a default or shut down of this country but i'm going to this country and the tea party, if you believe that's the way to go, you vote for them in 2012 and if you believe we're doing the right thing, this is what we're going to run on. and make that the case. why is he so frilt tended if everybody said, pr terms, he beat the day lights out of the republicans. why is he afraid? >> i think joe makes the point. this is a try fek ta for the tea party and which ever way you spin it, he's going to be crushed so he's six months out on the road as a loser and he's proved that instead of talking about jobs, instead of talking about how we grow this economy, he's talking about relate gating this issue. >> it's like extending the bush tax cuts for two years. we heard forever they were going to come to an end. he loses the election. he passes a trillion dollar bill

and extends the bush taxes. he loses on the bush tax cuts and he loses on this. >> he loses his home base. >> he's president of the united states. >> joe, why doesn't he say, look, i tell you what i'm going to do. you've seen the last of the bush tax cuts in 2012 if he's got the nerve to say that, he's got a big stick there. those things lapse without his help. coming up next, music and fashion mogul russell simmons. also, knockoff goods are nothing new in china. now there's a crackdown on completely fake apple stores that have recently popped up. one of those fake stores is still opened. plus, all eyes on how the market is going to react to the debt debate. first, bill karins has a look at the forecast. >> a little break for areas in the north on the heatwave but that is the exception. many areas are hot.

including washington, d.c. we're going to be 93. boston, hartford, the heat returns friday into saturday. dallas, 105 yesterday. 102 today. we have a chance for strong thunderstorms from fargo to sue falls to minneapolis. incredible summer heat all long, all season long in dallas. we'll continue this week. we've now had 24 days in a row of 100-degree heat. i think we have a chance of challenging the record which is 43 back in 1980. hottest summer ever. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. [ diane lane ] is your anti-wrinkle cream gone... but not your wrinkles. new neutrogena® rapid wrinkle repair. its retinol formula smoothes wrinkles in just one week.

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the 112 congress has been unable to reach an agreement probably because it's such a complicated thing that we've only been able to do it in the past 102 times. we've raised the debt ceiling 17 times under reagan, 5 times under bush, 4 times under clinton and seven times under george h.w. bush. so it's as effortless as this. but, of course, for this conference, congress, it's hard to grab a zip line when you can't see it. i'm not saying that this congress is as bad as a -- it's as equivalent to a skunk with

its head in a jar of skippy peanut butter. >> welcome back to "morning joe." russell simmons is here to discuss the auction to benefit arts education program. >> that's great. >> happy to be here. >> i'm interested in your take as you watch what is going on in washington as a businessman who has to make tough decisions every day to get things done. what do you feel when you watch this process? >> there was a moment before christmas when the president made great strides in compromising and getting work done. i just think that they are not allowing him to do it. the idea that i can't pay more taxes is crazy. that oil companies can't get the tax break that they got is nuts with the success that they have. dow jones was at 8,000. it's now at 12,000. a lot of the rich is prospering and we can afford to handle the load. it's unreasonable to think that we don't have to. i can't imagine that they can

keep a base of people struggling in this country, republicans, and act in such bad faith. that's my take on it. i'm happy to pay more taxes. i wouldn't want to put it in a war country but i'd do it for the country. he said that the battle ground was the debt and balancing the debt was the battle ground. he wanted to protect education but what if you were a school teacher in detroit and your husband was a policeman, 48% of the men are graduating and doubling the size of the class? you can't protect education. you have to subsidize it. lots of places in this country that we have to invest and get money to invest so we have to figure out ways to create income. and that's what the president is working on and he should be supported and it should be obvious. and the media should be there to support him because when some things are out of line and obvious and we need to make hard choices but the idea creating new revenue is not a hard

choice. that's something we have to do. we're not raising taxes. we're going back to -- we gave them a break for a minute and the rich got richer and now they have to pay. >> closing loopholes. charles, you came in with numbers from the research that shows a disparity between the rich and the poor, the black and the white. it just keeps growing and growing at rates so extreme that even alan greenspan is saying this is a fundamental threat to american capital lichl. >> absolutely. and it's -- part of the reason is that the housing crisis that started the great recession was part of the great recession disproportionately affected different communities that are reasonably distributed. asians, hispanics, mostly out west and hispanics, florida, some southeast, blacks mainly in

the south. but they are not rising out of the recession at the same rate. i think that the president has a great opportunity to say, i recognize that things are not improving for everyone at the same rate. you were not hit at the same rate and the improvement is not the same as everyone else. >> but politicians don't talk to -- >> and the working poor. they don't use the word poor. >> obviously you couldn't make a speech, the reverend al sharpton, go in a trailer and talk about a working class man who has no teeth and is struggling in the trailer who has absolutely no hope and say, this is an american who needs help. -- there is some discussion or some idea that maybe african-americans, i guess, the underserved communities in the

african-american community, music may be more visible so the perception that he's talking to black people is real. but the fact is, all of america is suffering. the underserved need his help and he needs to stand up for them. and i think that's what this discussion is about. he needs to stand up with them and for them. >> and, by the way, how then could the republicans turn away? >> that's right. >> from that argument? because that would look extremely -- i don't even want to think -- the last time i used this word it ended up -- >> but be careful. >> beyond insensitive. >> but pat buchanan, though, the fact is the way our political system is set up these days, let's face it, campaigns for democrats and republicans are funded by wall street. by the hedge fund guys that get these outrageous tax breaks. by people with corporate taxes

that get tax breaks. >> the people who are more powerful than lobbyists. listen, i don't want to get thrown off. >> let us hear from pat real quick. >> gentlemen, i think you both have a good point. the subprime mortgages really hammered the hispanic community in california, arizona, florida and the african-american community because they benefited from it. at the same time, the 8 to 12,000 on the dow that we saw, by and large benefits the stock holding community which is the top 10% where african-americans and hispanics are not overrepresented. isn't that true? >> that's absolutely true. >> that is the case. so, willy, let's move on and talk to russell. >> i would love to discuss this with you guys. i have fundraising to do. >> you have business to do.

>> we don't underwrite education. there is no use to you if you can't be creative. so we believe art education, which has been taken from the school, the first thing to go, needs to be supplemented and that's what we're trying to do. so rush foundation, go to rush 05000 to text and go to charitybuzz.com and we have an auction. we have brice martin and we have very famous artists. carol walker. they have donated artwork so you can buy donated items. we have lots of -- we're honoring mary j. blige, ed norton, the actor. tamara and many bankers and money people. but they are giving us lots of

money, they have been a great supporter. and then we have gweneth and uma thurman are co-chairs. it's the 12th time we've had it at my house, this sunday, july 31st. the individual tickets left are $3,000. the tables are 20,000. we want to raise $2 million for the arts and underwrite art and education which is what we've been doing for many year gls willie geist, this is not one of my parties where we invite next door neighbors and cook hot dogs. >> only complementaries. i wish i could talk to every friend that i have ever had that cannot come to the after party but come to the pre party.

no friends, i hate to say it. >> absolutely. >> willie, we should point out, you can get a tour of the "morning joe," two tickets to go see bill maher, backstage with 50 cent. you mentioned gweneth paltrow. work out with gweneth paltrow. >> i would, you should do that. >> go ahead. >> justin timberlake. it's all a-list kind of stuff. i want to go back to the group itself. art for life. explain just basically what it is and if it's important to you. >> opportunities for inner city kids. we have two galleries and programs that we operate. we have 2500 kids. we want to serve a lot more. it's really, you know, each individual charity that does this work is great. but if we keep doing it, maybe it will sink through to those people that have to deal with the budget that if we want to educate our kids, they do

dramatically increase in their programs and work and school in math and science and everything if they practice the art. >> it's critical. what people don't understand -- >> very important. >> -- is the fact that we live now in the talent age. and it's not the industrial age, not the information age, it's an age, it is a generation that will fuel -- success will be fueled by the imagination. >> that's right. >> where you come up with an idea and say, wait a second. why didn't we do it that way? >> hope and imagination, the imagination is god. fapth alone will -- enough faith, miracles. but hard work, dedication, and faith. but you must have the imagination first and anything can be accomplished and kids have to believe that. >> it's not just a feel good exercise. this is important for exercise. >> that's right. for everything. >> and what science is teaching us that everything that we've been doing lately is wrong.

cutting the arts is hurting education. >> music. >> physical education, it's hurting the learning. if we go back to the way things were when we had the arts program, we had the more physical education, kids actually learned more. >> and more efficiently. >> you guys are on my side. >> yes, we are. this is not an argument. >> by the way, you two hung out? >> yes, it was nice to see you the other night. >> we had an event that featured all of the artists and, again, brice martin and carol walker and many, many great artists have donated work. and it's going to be a great auction that we should raise a nice chunk of money from the art that was donated and that's a great artists that have been given us that work. >> yes. amazing. >> it's art for live. russell's group art for life. charitybuzz.com. go down the list. there's incredible things that you can bid on. huge celebrities to hang out

with. >> my legs won't snap -- >> i would pay to see -- i'll bid on that. >> we'll all bid on that. >> none of you bid to do yoga with me. you want to go with gweneth. >> thank you, russell. ♪ we believe doing the right thing never goes unnoticed. liberty mutual insurance. responsibility. what's your policy?

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welcome back. 38 past the hour. in china, authorities are cracking down on an apple store that is a fake shop. there is one creating an internet sensation and it's also still in business. >> reporter: in a country known for its copycats and counter fits, even this seemed unprecedented. an entire knockoff of an apple store. >> if people see a way of making money, they are getting in the middle of it and doing it. >> first blogged about it on her website. this was a total apple store ripoff, a beautiful ripoff. the blog went viral, a million hits in 72 hours. the kind of attention that staff here says was unwanted. >> translator: i was very sad

when the report first came out. the sales woman did not want to show her face on camera. i think some of the media has distorted the facts. but the fact remains, this isn't a real apple shop. despite the convincing details, from the bright interiors to the employees' blue t-shirts. this store is not authorized to sell apple products, although it's now planning to apply for a license. >> translator: still, the store manager who did not want to show his face on camera says the products are real and come with a guarantee. apple itself has refused to comment on the knockoff shop but this lawyer says even in china the store is infringing on the store's look.

>> translator: apple has very strict standards that we have to meet with service but the brand is so popular here in china that fans like this young boy say -- they don't care if the store or products aren't real, as long as they work. ensuring a next generation of apple products. >> how does that happen? >> it used to be eight-track tapes and cassettes sold on the side of the road and now they have entire stores. >> but is it a cheese bar? >> that is scary. >> it looks real. >> you and i need to open a mcdonald ds franchise, a fake one. just sell burgers and fries. >> mcdowell's. >> exactly.

time now -- >> the golden arcs. >> you're funny. all right. it's time now to check on business. >> so why don't we go to simon hobbs on wall street. >> let's see how simon is today. >> wall street is not spooked by the prospects of a debt crash. what is going on? >> wall street is potentially very spooked by it, but still a central politicians are going to do a deal. they have to do a deal because it's too awful for them not to. is the deadline august 2nd or later in the month. what is interesting, guys, and i would like to explain it to you if i can, thinking about what a default would mean for ordinary americans. the classic view is that the americans have always borrowed on their automotive loans or for college fees at much lower rates than anybody else around the world because when the

government tries to borrow, there are loads of people around the world saying, borrow from me, borrow from me. the interest rate that the treasury borrows out is really very low and everything else is linked to that. the automotive loans and so on. if the rating agency says there's a little chance now that they may not pay back their debts, america might default, which is the ratings' down grade, there are people saying, borrow from me, borrow from me. the interest rate that the government will borrow at is slightly higher. now, that is what the white house is telling everybody. and i paraphrase. what the white house is learning is more than that. big fund managers around the world have to maintain an average rating of everything that they own, junk bonds, emerging markets bonds and treasuries. if you get a downgrade on the treasuries here, it pushes down the average on the overall portfolio and, therefore, they

are probably foresellers of the junk at the bottom of that portfolio and may in fact be buyers of treasuries. in other words, interest rates may not rise for an average american because you have the flight to quality and buy more treasuries in the event that there is a downgrade to the u.s. debt. >> that is fascinating that you'll just basically the customers change. >> yeah. the problem with that is that you've got mass selling of some markets, maybe oil, maybe commodities. and that in itself would rock financial markets. the other big issue that we're trying to get to grips with at the moment is that treasuries are used like oil and international commerce as collateral. when that sells, we're not sure what the implications will be. that's still the big question mark that we're trying to work through. the view is changing.

>> that's fascinating, simon. thank you so much. >> all right. we'll be back in just a moment. somewhere in america, a city comes to life. it moves effortlessly, breathes easily. it flows with clean water. it makes its skyline greener and its population healthier. all to become the kind of city people want to live and work in. somewhere in america, we've already answered some of the nation's toughest questions.

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a beautiful shot of washington. let's go there with pat buchanan. we heard simon hobbs saying that most people on the street believe they are going to get a debt deal done. is that eventually what is working against the president politically, that the logic of this is that he's got to sign at the end of the day whatever stops it from happening? >> we are going to get the debt ceiling which means he signed it. you and i talked to mr. sperling and dick durbin and what did they say? they simply would not rule in a veto.

i think he's going to have to sign the agreement that harry reid and john boehner agrees to. he has no alternative. i think this crisis may be about to end. >> willie, you talked off the air that the president would veto an extension. >> eat your peas conference. that's when he said two weeks ago, under no condition will i sign a short-term deal. they were talking about a three-month deal. this is six months. but he was very clear and explicit saying this is not the way the united states of america conducts business in this piecemeal way. >> republicans have pushed aside the peas and went straight for the chocolate ice creams. >> yes. >> and they are going to get their way, aren't they? >> it looks like they are going to get their way in the sense that there will not be revenue. neither of these plans have any revenue. >> so if there's no revenue, is the mutual obligation that my dad was talking about is is it going to be met?

>> it doesn't feel that way. there is no balance approach coming from either side at this point. there is no revenue. there are only cuts and the republican plan is even more dramatic in the sense that it requires $18 trillion to be found by this new panel that they set up before they can get a new increase six months from now. that is going to fall on poor people. there are only three ways to get there. either you go after social security/medicare. >> right. >> either you gut the health care plan or you cut the safety plans. there's no other way. you can pretend that there's some sort of way to get to this 1.8 trillion other than going to those three ways. but you can't. that is not some ten-year projection for those people. >> right. and charles, we just showed a poll that said 84% of americans right now describe the economy as poor.

you look at 46% very poor. 38% somewhat poor. that's horrific. >> it's awful and that's where most people's image is focused. very few people are paying close to this debate. only a quarter of americans say that they are focused intently. >> those numbers, 84% say that the economy is poor. that is about as bad as it gets. >> if those are not re-election numbers, joe, that's higher than in 2008. it's bad news for the president and a lot of incumbents. >> we'll be back. >> thanks tea party. [ male announcer ] get ready for the left lane. the volkswagen autobahn for all event is back. right now, get a great deal on new volkswagen models, including the jetta, awarded a top safety pick by the iihs. that's the power of german engineering. hurry in and lease the jetta s for just $179 a month.

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the republicans and the democrats cannot make a deal. we are only a couple days off before we are taken over by the chinese. laugh now. ha-ha. tee-hee. republicans and democrats cannot make a deal, ladies and gentlemen, where is howie mandel? where is howie mandel? well, big news, you guys. after months of negotiations, a deal has been reached to end the nfl lockout. or as china put it, 14 trillion,

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welcome back to "morning joe." pat, what did you learn? >> obama signs the debt ceiling match tea party. >> willie, what have you learned? >> i've learned russell simmons, art for life, go to charitybuzz.com. you can go yoga with gweneth

paltrow or come see "morning joe". >> everybody around here is going to put their money together so i can go out and do yoga with gwenie at the hampton. >> you would snap in half. >> what did you learn? >> that you are the biggest fan of coming to america. i had no idea. >> you had no idea? >> 47 times. >> that and shawshank redemption. >> what did you learn? >> it's a plea to let the hostages go. let them go. >> you know what i learned, willie, that there was an earthquake earlier this morning and mika said, thank you, tea party. >> just because it sums up the route of our problem in this crisis. i'm sorry that bothers you. >>